Pte 17878 John Edgar Kinder

• Age: 32
• From: Kirkdale, Liverpool
• Regiment: The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 19th Btn
• K.I.A Sunday 30th July 1916
• Commemorated at: Thiepval Memorial
  Panel Ref: P&F1D8B &8 C.

John Edgar was born on 23rd February 1884 at Kirkdale, Liverpool. He was the son of Benjamin Kinder and his wife Mary Elizabeth (nee Payne). His parents married in 1883. Edgar was the first of their three children. He had a brother George Frederick and a sister Ethel, who was born in 1888 and died at nine months old.

At the time of the 1891 census the family is living at 80-82 Rice Lane in Walton, where his father is a pawnbroker’s manager. Edgar is 7 and Frederick 5.

Edgar attended Arnot Street School and Northcote Road Council School.

The 1901 Census shows the family are living at 80 Rice Lane, Walton, Liverpool. John E. is 17 years of age and is shown as a wholsale draper's assistant. His father, Benjamin, is 41 years of age, a pawnbroker's manager born in Liverpool in 1860 whilst his mother, aged 40, was born in Liverpool in 1861. Also present is his brother George F. a 15 year old laboratory attendant.  

The 1911 Census shows the family have moved and are now across the Mersey living at 20 Wesley Avenue, Egremont, Liscard. Both parents, Benjamin 51 and Mary 50, are resident in the household and they declare that they have been married for twenty seven years and have had three children sadly one of whom had died. John Edgar is now aged 27, born 1884 a draper’s assistant and George Frederick aged 25, born 1886 is a railway clerk.  

Prior to enlisting he had been on the staff of Rylands and Sons Limited, Liverpool for 16 years. He was also the organist at Queens Road Primitive Methodist Chapel, Bootle and prior to that he was deputy organist at Princes-Gate Baptist Church. 

He married Catherine Elizabeth Rowlands in the Primitive Methodist Chapel, Bootle on 16th August 1911. Edgar's brother George Frederick was his best man. Catherine was born 10th May 1883.

Edgar enlisted in Liverpol on 03rd September 1914, joining the 19th Battalion as Private 17878. He declared his age as being 30 years and 108 days and his occupation is listed as a salesman. He is described as being 5' 10 and a half inches tall, weighing 133lbs with a 34 and a half inch chest. He is of sallow complexion with steel grey eyes and black hair. He gives, as next of kin, his wife Catherine at 10 Templemore Ave., Mossley Hill, Liverpool.

Formed on 07^th September 1914 the 19^th Battalion trained locally at Sefton Park and remained living at home or in rented accommodation until November 1914. They then moved to the hutted accommodation at Lord Derby’s estate at Knowsley Hall. On 30th April 1915 the 19th Battalion alongside the other three Pals battalions left Liverpool via Prescot Station for further training at Belton Park, Grantham. They remained here until September 1915 when they reached Larkhill Camp on Salisbury Plain. He arrived in France on 7^th November 1915.

He was admitted to the Field Ambulance on 29th June 1916 suffering from Influenza, he rejoined his battalion on 05th July 1916. His records state that he was a qualified machine gunner. 

His younger brother George Frederick was also a Liverpool Pal and had joined the 17th Battalion of The King's Liverpool Regiment as Private 15899.  

On 27th July 1916 Edgar wrote to his brother Fred after hearing that he had been wounded:

My Dear Fred,

Thanks very much for your letter, I was delighted to get it, and know definitely that nothing very serious was the matter. The day you were wounded the brigade was relieved on the same evening, we all went back to the same camp and I can tell you I got a rare shake up when none of your fellows could tell me anything of you but that you were missing and hadn't turned up, and it was late at night that I was taken to your Captain and obtained some information as to what had occurred during the afternoon of the same day that you were hit. 

Jim, Richey and I were buried by a H.E., the thing landed two yards from us and it must have burst straight up in the air. We were all shaken up and my hand and face were scratched in several places. We are back again in reserve and have been so now for over a week. I am rather surprised that you should think that this brigade was in for a long rest or maybe you were intending to be sarcastic.

You will be interested to know that Major Rollo is now our C.O. Col. Denham having taken some staff appointment, so I understand. You will remember Lloyd of R & S, he is now a CSM, and last night he suddenly surprised me by coming along. We thought he was miles and miles away but his battalion are quite close to ours. We celebrated the event with eight bottles of fizz. We have been bivouacing here for over a week, fortunately the weather is decent and we ae having quite a far time. Wall, Ivor, Jim, Power have all been asking after you. I let them see your letter last night and they all send along good wishes for a very slow but sure and steady recovery. I very heartily wish you the same.

Glad to say am in the pink, although still slightly deaf for the concussion of that shell that buried us. 

Kindest regards, your affectionate brother 27/7/16

Edgar      

Just three days after composing that touching letter, Edgar was killed in action on the 30^th July 1916, aged 32, at the village of Guillemont, France, during the Somme Offensive. 

19^th Battalion Diary 30^th July 1916

MALTZ HORN FARM

BATTLE begun. ZERO hour 4:45 am. The Battalion reached its objective, but suffered heavy losses, and had to evacuate its position owing to no reinforcements.

Everard Wyrall gives details of the attack in his book The History of The King’s Regiment; 

"The 2nd Attack on Guillemont- 29th July 1916 the 89th Brigade the 20th King's were to attack on the right and the 19th on the left. During the evening of the 29th the night was dark and foggy when the Battalions moved off and the 19th with Lt Col G Rollo commanding, when passing the South east of the Briqueterie they were heavily shelled first with H E and then with a new kind of asphyxiating Gas shell which had curious results, at first it had no nasty effect but about 8 hrs later men began to fall sick with violent headaches and pains in the stomach. All ranks had to wear gas masks which in the darkness and mist made the going terribly difficult. It was indeed wonderful that they were able to reach their Assembly point at all. But they did and by 2.45 a.m. on the 30th July 1916 the Btn was assembled having suffered about 30 Casualties on the way up ready for the Zero hour at 4.45 a.m.

It is known that the two left Companies of the 19th under Capt. Dodd and Capt. Nicholson advanced in touch with the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers on their left although they suffered many casualties from Machine gun Fire did not encounter many Germans and reached their final objective about the time allocated, beginning at once to dig in south of the orchard on the South east corner of Guillemont.  

On the left of the 19th the Scots Fusiliers most gallantly forced their way through Guillemont to the eastern side of the village but were soon overwhelmed by the enemy and few returned. 

At 8 a.m. finding that the village was not held the two left Companies of the 19th received no word from the rear or either flank believed themselves to be totally isolated so were forced to fall back and dig in, their position being untenable.

At midday the effective fighting strength of the 19th Btn was just 7 Officers and 43 other ranks" 

When darkness fell on the battlefield the 30^th Division held a line from the railway on the eastern side of Trones Wood , southwards and including Arrow Head Copse, to east of Maltz Horn Farm. On this line the division was relieved by the 55^th Division during the early hours of the 31^st July.

Casualties in the 19^th Battalion were 11 Officers and 435 Other Ranks 

The events of 30^th July 1916 were regarded at the time as Liverpool’s blackest day. There follows an extract from The History of the 89^th Brigade written by Brigadier General Ferdinand Stanley which gives an indication of the events of the day.

Guillemont

Well the hour to advance came, and of all bad luck in the world it was a thick fog; so thick that you couldn’t see more than about ten yards. It was next to impossible to delay the attack – it was much too big an operation- so forward they had to go. It will give some idea when I say that on one flank we had to go 1,750 yards over big rolling country. Everyone knows what it is like to cross enclosed country which you know really well in a fog and how easy it is to lose your way. Therefore, imagine these rolling hills, with no landmarks and absolutely unknown to anyone. Is it surprising that people lost their way and lost touch with those next to them? As a matter of fact, it was wonderful the way in which many men found their way right to the place we wanted to get to. But as a connected attack it was impossible.

The fog was intense it was practically impossible to keep direction and parties got split up. Owing to the heavy shelling all the Bosches had left their main trenches and were lying out in the open with snipers and machine guns in shell holes, so of course our fellows were the most easy prey.

It is so awfully sad now going about and finding so many splendid fellows gone.   

Edgar's death was reported in the Liverpool Echo on 14th August 1916:

WELL-KNOWN ORGANIST.

Private J. Edgar Kinder, of the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, who resided with his wife at 10, Templemore-avenue, Mossley-hill, Liverpool, has been killed. He was on the staff of Rylands and Sons, Limited, Liverpool, for sixteen years until August 1914, when he, along with several colleagues, joined the 'Pals." His musical abilities were much above the average, and for some considerable time he was organist at Queen's-road Primitive Methodist Chapel, Bootle, and immediately previous to the joining the colours was deputy organist at Prince's-gate Baptist Church. 

His wife placed a notice which appeared in the Liverpool Evening Express of 15th August 1916 under the header Killed in Action:

KINDER - July 30 , killed in action, aged 32 years Private John Edgar (Pals, Machine Gun Section) dearly loved husband of Cis Kinder, 10 Templemore Avenue, Mossley Hill.

His Casualty Form shows Missing on 05th August 1916 and his name was published in the Liverpool papers as Missing on 18th September 1916.  Even though his loved ones were informed of his death in August, an entry on the Casualty Form dated 25th December 1916 records Killed in Action.

In hopes that Edgar had been taken prisoner, Catherine contacted the International Red Cross (Pte. 17878 K.L.R. Machine Gun Section, age 32, missing since the fighting at Guillemont in July). She was notified in a reply dated 28th September 1916 that they held no information on Edgar.

Edgar's body was not recovered or was subsequently lost as he has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing of the Somme.

The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916. 

On 01st August 1932 the Prince of Wales and the President of France inaugurated the Thiepval Memorial in Picardy. The inscription reads: “Here are recorded the names of officers and men of the British Armies who fell on the Somme battlefields between July 1915 and March 1918 but to whom the fortune of war denied the known and honoured burial given to their comrades in death.”

Edgar earned his three medals.

Catherine received his Army pay and a War Gratuity of £8-10s, and was awarded a widow’s pension of 13/9d a week, increased to £1-3s-4d in April 1919. 

In a sworn declaration made on 03rd June 1919 his widow Catherine advised that the living relatives of John Edgar were; herself living at 10 Templemore Avenue, Mossley Hill, Liverpool, his father Benjamin and his brother George Frederick. 

She is listed on electoral rolls at 10 Templemore Avenue until 1925.  The pension card notes, "Transferred abroad", and "Died 1931". 

His parents moved to Wallasey and lived in The Summit, Liscard.  

His mother died on 05th February 1918 in her 57th year. Her death was referred to in the Liverpool Echo on Wednesday 06 February 1918: 

KlNDER—February 5, at 2, The Summit, Liscard in her 57th year, MARY ELIZABETH, the dearly-loved wife of Benjamin Kinder. Funeral service at 1.30 p.m. Friday next at Poulton Primitive Methodist Church. Interment afterwards, 2 p.m. Rake Lane Cemetery, Liscard. 

Probate 1918:- 

KINDER Mary Elizabeth of 2 The Summit, Liscard, Wallasey Cheshire (wife of Benjamin Kinder) died 5 February 1918 Administration Chester 17 June to the said Benjamin Kinder pawnbroker’s manager. Effects £284 13s 2d. 

Benjamin remarried to Agatha Davies in 1919 at Seacombe Methodist Church, Poulton Road. 

His father died on the 03rd April 1923, aged 63. His death was reported in the Liverpool Echo on Thursday 05 April 1923: 

KINDER - April 3 at 2 The Summit, Wallasey, BENJAMIN, the dearly loved husband of Agatha Kinder. Internment at Rake Lane Cemetery tomorrow, Friday, at 2:45 p.m. 

Probate 1923:- 

KINDER Benjamin of 2 The Summit, Liscard, Wallasey Cheshire died 3 April 1923 Administration Chester 16 May to George Frederick Kinder medical student. Effects £621. 

The family grave headstone at Rake Lane Cemetery reads:- 

In Loving Memory of  

MARY ELIZABETH, 

The dearly beloved wife of BENJAMIN KINDER,  

Who passed from this life February 5th 1918 in her 57th year.  

Also  

JOHN EDGAR 19th Batt. K.L.R. “The Pals”, 

Eldest son of the above,  

Who was killed in action at Guilloumont(sic),  

July 30th 1916, aged 32 years. 

“Never Forgotten”.  

Also  

The above BENJAMIN KINDER,  

Who departed this life 3rd April 1923 in his 64th year. 

Edgar is commemorated on the following Memorials:

Liverpool’s Hall of Remembrance, Panel 67

Northcote Road Council School Plaque, Walton, Liverpool

His brother George Frederick survived the war having earned a commission as Second Lieutenant on 30th January 1918. As a result of earning this commission Frederick was able to study at University following the war. He put his studies to great use and became a GP practising in Liverpool until his retirement. 

Grateful thanks are extended to Edgar's nephew John Kinder who kindly shared both Edgar's story and also that of his brother George Frederick Kinder with us.  

We currently have no further information on John Edgar Kinder. If you have or know someone who may be able to add to the history of this soldier, please contact us.